The abortion story shared by DeSantis during the GOP debate has a greater level of complexity than he portrayed.

During the recent GOP presidential debate, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis was questioned about his stance on nationwide abortion restrictions. In response, he shared a surprising anecdote.

“I am acquainted with a woman named Penny who resides in Florida,” he stated. “She managed to endure several unsuccessful attempts at abortion. She was callously abandoned in a container. Thankfully, her grandmother intervened and transported her to an alternative medical facility.”

He offered no other details and the debate moderators moved on. But according to news reports, doctors who reviewed her case and an interview with the woman, the story is far more complicated than DeSantis made it sound.

It dates to 1955, a vastly different time both medically and socially. Abortion was largely illegal, including in Florida, contraception options were few and babies born at an extremely early gestational age were not expected to survive. Anti-abortion groups often use stories like this to argue against abortion. DeSantis also has frequently criticized abortions later in pregnancy on the campaign trail as he seeks to court GOP primary voters.

It is difficult to confirm the specific details of what occurred many years ago. This raises concerns about how relevant the story is to the current national debate on abortion rights, particularly after the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe v. Wade last year. Additionally, discussions about abortions later in pregnancy are also brought into question, as experts suggest that these procedures are extremely uncommon and frequently result in serious complications.

The woman is 67-year-old Miriam “Penny” Hopper, a Florida resident who has been told that she survived multiple abortion attempts when she was in the womb. The first, she said in an interview, was by her parents at home and the second by a local doctor who instructed a nurse to discard her in a bedpan after inducing her birth at just 23 weeks gestation.

Hopper revealed that she discovered from her father that her parents attempted to terminate the pregnancy in their own residence. Unfortunately, there were complications, so they sought medical assistance at the hospital. According to the account, the doctor was unable to detect a heartbeat, administered a shot, and instructed the nurse to dispose of the baby, regardless of whether it was alive or deceased.

Hopper claimed that she came into the world emitting a high-pitched sound, but was left on the hospital’s rear porch. According to her, her grandmother stumbled upon her the next day, still breathing, and promptly took her to a different medical facility. Hopper was informed that she remained in that place for a period of three and a half months, and managed to survive thanks to the assistance of an incubator. The nurses affectionately called her “Penny” due to her reddish hair resembling the color of copper.

She stated that throughout her entire life, her parents had consistently expressed to her, “You are a miraculous being to have the gift of life.”

Hopper has collaborated with anti-abortion organizations across the country, using her narrative. However, medical professionals who examined the account have expressed doubts about whether her birth was indeed an attempted abortion, and have raised concerns about the reliability of the estimated gestational age.

During the 1950s, when Hopper was born, premature infants born at 23 weeks had minimal chances of survival due to limited advancements in their care. Even in the early years of the 21st century, it was generally agreed that the threshold for viability was around 24 weeks. A pregnancy is typically considered full-term at 39 to 40 weeks.

A number of OB-GYNs have stated that it seems the situation was handled as a stillbirth when a doctor was unable to find a heartbeat. As the fetus was believed to be deceased, the medical procedure conducted at the hospital would not be classified as an abortion, according to Leilah Zahedi-Spung, a maternal fetal medicine physician in Colorado.

In 1956, a newspaper article reported on Hopper’s remarkable healing process, which occurred the year after she was born. However, this account adds complexity to the narrative. According to the story in the Lakeland Ledger, doctors at a hospital in Wauchula made significant efforts to ensure the survival of the baby, who weighed only 1 pound and 11 ounces. Eventually, she was transferred to a larger hospital under police escort and admitted there, where she received care in an incubator.

Zahedi-Spung stated that it seems like they were expecting a stillborn baby. However, when the baby was born alive, they made efforts to revive her and then transferred her to the necessary location.

The Tampa Tribune reported in another news article that doctors recommended incubation, which was not accessible in Wauchula, resulting in her being transferred.

Hopper disagrees with the claim that doctors made an initial attempt to save her life, stating, “I don’t believe they truly made any significant effort.”

The details were examined by OB-GYNs who also expressed concerns about Hopper’s gestational age when she was born. They suggested that her recorded birth weight is more consistent with a fetus that is several weeks older, approximately 26 or 27 weeks. They further explained that at 23 weeks, the lungs are not sufficiently developed to breathe without significant assistance. Therefore, it is unlikely that an infant of this age could survive being abandoned outdoors for hours.

Mary Jane Minkin, a gynecologist at the Yale University School of Medicine, mentioned that accurately determining the dates of pregnancies was challenging in 1955 when ultrasounds were not yet employed for medical purposes.

Hopper recognized that there is limited information available regarding her birth, except for the newspaper articles. Unfortunately, her parents have passed away, and the county refused to provide her birth records.

She acknowledged being the individual DeSantis mentioned, but declined to disclose if she has encountered or communicated with the governor.

“I won’t delve into that topic as I prefer not to engage in political mudslinging,” she stated. “The focus of this narrative revolves around abortion and the resilience of those who have undergone it.”

Scrutiny on DeSantis’ debate anecdote comes at a time when he is struggling to maintain his distant second-place stature in the Republican nominating contest. He has promoted his staunch opposition to abortion to curry favor with conservative voters, although he avoided a direct answer when asked at the debate if he favors a national ban on abortions at six weeks of pregnancy. He signed such legislation earlier this year in Florida.

“I cannot reword”

The DeSantis campaign failed to provide a response to numerous inquiries for comment.

Medical experts generally say the idea of abortion “up to birth ″ is misleading. They say terminations later in pregnancy are very rare and typically involve medication that induces birth early, which is different from a surgical abortion. They typically happen only if the fetus has a low probability of survival, experts say.

According to information provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in the year 2020, the percentage of abortions conducted in the United States at or after 21 weeks of pregnancy was less than 1%.

Mary Ziegler, a law professor at the University of California, Davis, School of Law and an expert on the history of the abortion debate, stated that due to advancements in medical technology, it is highly unlikely for an infant to survive after an abortion.

But such stories continue to resonate. Similar abortion “survivor” anecdotes have been used by anti-abortion groups during legislative debates over so-called “born-alive” measures. Those measures require doctors to give life-sustaining care in the extremely rare case an infant is born alive after an attempted abortion.

Advocates for increasing abortion accessibility also emphasize compelling narratives, particularly due to the Supreme Court’s removal of constitutional safeguards for the process.

Women have been forced to carry babies with fatal fetal anomalies to term or have been turned away from hospitals and had to go out of state for abortions. Those stories are more relevant to the current abortion debate, said Marc Hearron, senior counsel for the Center for Reproductive Rights, a national group that advocates for abortion access.

“This is happening right now, not a story from 50 years ago that has absolutely nothing to do with abortion today,” Hearron said.

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Fernando provided information from Chicago, while Swenson shared updates from New York. Rhonda Shafner, a news researcher at the Associated Press in New York, and Laura Ungar, an AP Science Writer, also contributed to this report.

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